When Is the Right Time to Make A Care Change with Michelle Graf

Navigating senior care decisions isn’t easy… and most families don’t realize that until they’re in it. 

Kelly recently had a conversation with Michelle Graf that reinforced something I see all the time: 👉 The timing of your planning changes everything.

A few things that often surprise people:

• Waiting until a crisis limits your options more than you think
• “Independence” in care doesn’t always look the way people expect
• And one financial assumption can quietly derail an otherwise solid plan

This isn’t just something to think about later.

The earlier you start, the more control you have—over your options, your finances, and your family’s experience.

If you’re supporting aging parents—or thinking ahead for yourself—this is a conversation worth having sooner, not later.

For additional information about Kelly, check her out on Linkedin or www.SteadfastAgents.com.

To explore your options for long-term care insurance, click here.

Steadfast Care Planning podcast is made possible by AMADA Senior Care and Steadfast Insurance LLC.

Come back next time for more helpful guidance! 

Transcript

Kelly Augspurger [00:00:02]:
Hi everyone, welcome to Steadfast Care Planning where we plan for care to live well. I'm Kelly Augspurger, long-term care insurance specialist and your guide. With me today is Michelle Graf, Certified Senior Advisor with Care Patrol of the Fox Cities in Green Bay. Michelle helps families navigate some of the most emotionally charged moments of aging, from gradual decline to sudden health crises, and find care solutions that are realistic, safe, and sustainable. Welcome, Michelle.

Michelle Graf [00:00:32]:
Thank you, Kelly. I'm happy to be here.

Kelly Augspurger [00:00:34]:
Thanks so much for being here. This conversation is for families and for financial advisors who want to better support clients when care decisions move from theoretical to real and are wondering, is it time, or when is it time for a lifestyle change due to the need of care? And that lifestyle change could be home care, assisted living, CCRC, memory care, or nursing facility. So Michelle, can we jump right in?

Michelle Graf [00:01:01]:
I'm ready.

Kelly Augspurger [00:01:02]:
Okay. Well, let's start out kind of what triggers a phone call for you. When families first reach out to you, what's usually happening in their world?

Michelle Graf [00:01:12]:
Well, people call for different reasons. So some people who are the planners will call us proactively and say, "Look, we're starting to notice some changes with my parent, or my spouse, or myself. Things are changing and I want to know what my options are. I want to explore and understand." And so that's one reason. And those people, they might be nervous, but they're calm.

Kelly Augspurger [00:01:35]:
Okay.

Michelle Graf [00:01:35]:
But most of the people who contact us are closer to a crisis situation. So they're calling us and saying, "I need help right now, whether it's for themselves, or for a loved one. And I don't know where to turn. I'm in a situation. I don't know what my options are. And I literally have no idea where to start." And that happens far too frequently, unfortunately.

Kelly Augspurger [00:01:58]:
This is not the first time I've heard this, Michelle, when I've talked to other professionals that are in the facility placement, or home care agency industry. A lot of these phone calls I hear are the same. They are crisis situations, which it's great that you're able and capable and are equipped to be able to handle these types of situations, but we probably would both prefer proactive planning. Would you agree?

Michelle Graf [00:02:21]:
Absolutely. It's always better to plan ahead. It's not always possible for people because sometimes people just don't see it coming.

Kelly Augspurger [00:02:28]:
Yeah.

Michelle Graf [00:02:28]:
And that's okay. That's why we're here to help. That's why we do what we do is because we are able to help people quickly to get the solutions and the information that they need.

Kelly Augspurger [00:02:37]:
Yeah.

Michelle Graf [00:02:37]:
But it does happen too frequently, unfortunately.

Kelly Augspurger [00:02:41]:
So knowing when it's actually time to have some kind of a lifestyle change, how can families tell the difference between normal aging, Michelle, and signs a living situation is no longer safe, what does that look like?

Michelle Graf [00:02:54]:
Yeah, it kind of depends on the individual situation, unfortunately. So it's not a black and white— I can't tell you black and white when those situations are. Some people are living completely alone and they're no longer able to provide for all their individual needs, and they may need help sooner. However, a lot of times families, whether it's a spouse that's living in the house that's able to provide, or children who are living nearby that are able to provide, kind of fill that gap. And so knowing when the right time is, is more of a bell curve than it is a black and white line. And we help people sort of understand those differences.

Kelly Augspurger [00:03:31]:
Okay, where do falls come into this situation? Is this something that you tend to see often is people are starting to trip and have more frequent falls? And so at that point you talk to the family about if they're living alone, here are some things that you can do to prevent falls in the home while they're at home alone. Or is it too frequently, "Do we just need to move somewhere where there are other people around you?"

Michelle Graf [00:03:54]:
Interestingly, one of the main times that people fall— it's hard to imagine, but it's true— is when they're making up their bed. So for some reason, putting together, making up a bed is a common fall factor, as is being in the shower. So sometimes families are able to take over that responsibility for a senior, or we can bring in a home care agency that can take over some of those. For us, identifying when they're falling is really important. If people are falling all the time, well, then it's a safety factor. But if we can identify the specific situations, perhaps they're in the shower, we just have somebody come in and supervise, sort of like help them in, make sure they're stepping in safely. They may not have to participate in the shower. They could just be there for the beginning and the end of the shower.

Michelle Graf [00:04:38]:
So each individual's situation is different. That wouldn't necessarily be, "You have to move, you have to get care," but you do need somebody to assist.

Kelly Augspurger [00:04:48]:
Right. So the fall risk in the shower, I know that's huge in my world, in the long-term care insurance industry. That's what we tend to see, people needing standby assistance while bathing. And like you said, maybe it's— they're not there for the whole time, but it's in the beginning helping you get in and get out safely. That's really important.

Michelle Graf [00:05:06]:
Yes.

Kelly Augspurger [00:05:06]:
The making your bed, I actually have never heard that, that that's how some people fall is by making their bed. But as I just kind of think through, you're kind of throwing, pulling, using more body parts than maybe just your hand, right? It's more complicated than we might actually think. And if you're bending over and picking up throw pillows—

Michelle Graf [00:05:27]:
putting a fitted sheet on is not easy for anyone, right?

Kelly Augspurger [00:05:30]:
Bending over, things that we take for granted when we're younger and stable and have good balance become a significant issue maybe as we age.

Michelle Graf [00:05:40]:
And those are the slow changes. Those are the slow changes that we see over time that we have to just sort of watch for and pay attention to.

Kelly Augspurger [00:05:48]:
Okay. Is there a point where waiting too long actually limits care options? And what does that look like in real life?

Michelle Graf [00:05:56]:
There certainly is. There's always options for people. And I think one of the big factors is if we stay in denial for too long, we're not taking into consideration that there might be a waitlist. We're not taking into consideration that maybe we could get some less restrictive care by waiting till the last minute. You might be able to financially plan. If you're thinking about this ahead of time, you can financially plan, right? Maybe get some long-term care insurance, or some home care insurance. You can prepare yourself in so many more ways, making it more accessible, making it safer to really get ahead of the game. And by staying in denial, yes, it becomes complex and your options do become limited.

Michelle Graf [00:06:37]:
If you wait till the last minute to get care, unfortunately, you're sort of being told that you need care and you're on somebody else's timeline. And one thing, people don't like to give up their independence, and you can keep your independence and you can keep control by planning ahead and taking control of the situation yourself, as opposed to, "Oh boy, I had this dramatic incident happen. And my doctor says it's time and my only option is X or Y," even when you're working with Care Patrol, you still might only have 1 or 2 options because of availability, budget, finance, care needs at that time. And you sort of lose control because of that.

Kelly Augspurger [00:07:14]:
That word control, I think that is crucial because I think most Americans, we like to be in control, right? We like to be able to choose and do what we wanna do, when we wanna do it, how we do it. And as we age, I don't think that really changes. Maybe it even becomes worse, Michelle, I don't know, as we age, I would agree with that. Okay, maybe we're a little bit more stubborn as we age. I've had that experience with some family members as they age. We tend to be more set in our ways. And I like things done a particular way because I've done them for decades.

Kelly Augspurger [00:07:47]:
And so why is it any different when it comes to aging and longevity and planning for care? If we want things done a certain way and we want a certain level of care and quality care, well, we're probably going to need to do some proactive planning so that we have better options when we actually need that care.

Michelle Graf [00:08:07]:
Absolutely.

Kelly Augspurger [00:08:07]:
Yeah, absolutely.

Michelle Graf [00:08:09]:
Can I elaborate a little bit more on the whole control and independence also? Because sometimes being in the industry that I'm in, I think a lot of times people think being in their own home, their original home that they've lived in for a long time, is really their control, or their independence. But something that we've seen often is that when people do need help, they can actually achieve greater independence and control with some assistance. And whether it's having somebody come into their home to assist them with tasks that have become too difficult, or maybe moving to an environment that's safer where there's fewer stairs or fewer hazards and there's other people around and there's some social opportunities, their level of independence and control over their lives actually improves. It's a concern for me that people are not looking at the situation and accepting that perspective on it.

Kelly Augspurger [00:08:59]:
Yeah, I appreciate that. I think there's definitely a validity there. Control is something that we need to consider. And so whether it's at home, or in a facility, we wanna maintain as much independence as possible. So maybe that is staying in your home, but it could be moving to an assisted living. I actually have greater freedom and flexibility and independence because there are people down the hall that can help, right?

Michelle Graf [00:09:22]:
Exactly.

Kelly Augspurger [00:09:23]:
Well, Michelle, let's transition and talk a little bit about crisis versus proactive planning. How does decision-making differ when care needs come from a sudden crisis versus a slow decline? What do you tend to see being different there?

Michelle Graf [00:09:38]:
That's the difference between being told you need care and choosing to receive care, or some assistance. When it's that crisis situation, it usually happens very quickly. The person is in the hospital, or perhaps just finishing up a rehabilitation and we're getting the call, "We need something, we can't stay here and we need something within the next 36 hours because my insurance is cutting me off." So that's like a typical timeline and it's very stressful for families. People have never gone through it before. I mean, if a person goes through this process, twice in their lives. That's a lot. Unless you're a senior care advisor and you do this all the time.

Michelle Graf [00:10:22]:
But it's the fear of the unknown. It's scary. It's expensive. It's daunting. That's the typical crisis experience as opposed to the planning experience where you're looking at your financial situation with your financial planner. Maybe you're planning far enough in advance that you have enough time to pick up the long-term care insurance so that you can afford the care and it's not going to cut into your legacy that you want to leave. You're looking at the options that are available in the market at the time. Now, that changes a lot.

Michelle Graf [00:10:51]:
And it's not something...you don't want to plan your future where you want to retire 25 years ahead because the situation is going to change. But, at least having an idea of what's out there, a little bit of the landscape of your local geography, what places are near my children. It's a much more relaxed process. And both of those processes require professional assistance, in my opinion. Just to help guide and understand the ins and outs. But you're going to enjoy the planning process a lot more if you get ahead of it, as opposed to being told you've got 36 hours to figure this out.

Kelly Augspurger [00:11:26]:
Agree. I think it's much more emotionally charged in that crisis situation where, yeah, okay, I have 36 hours to figure out where my mom is going to go when she's released from the hospital. That is overwhelming. Because for everybody, not just for everybody here, for the whole family, for the adult kids, for maybe the other parent that is still alive, how do we best support my loved one in this process, but also not go off the deep end myself. And when emotions are high, we may not be making the best decisions. That's what I've seen too. And so, if you are in that 36-hour time frame, those decisions okay, is it the best one? Maybe, maybe not. But if we had thought about this a little bit in advance, maybe it's even like a year in advance. Where we kind of see mom is starting to decline a little bit. Okay, let's kind of get together as a family.

Kelly Augspurger [00:12:25]:
If this happens, what's the plan? Where might mom be able to go? Who might be able to pitch in and help? What home care agency should we consider? All of those things are easier to navigate when emotions are lower and we don't have that time crunch.

Michelle Graf [00:12:41]:
Absolutely. Very well said. Thank you, Kelly.

Kelly Augspurger [00:12:44]:
The Steadfast Care Planning podcast is sponsored by Amada Senior Care. Amada provides complimentary consultations with a senior care advisor to help families find the right care, from in-home caregiving to community care, along with long-term care insurance claim advocacy. When Jim Grissett's father Francis needed care, Amada stepped in to help the family navigate the process. Here's what Jim shared about his experience. I didn't even know my dad had long-term care insurance. I started reading through it and didn't have a clue. Amada sorted everything out for me, explained everything, and processed all the claims so my dad received all the benefits he was entitled to. They did a fantastic job for me.

Kelly Augspurger [00:13:25]:
That's what true advocacy looks like. Amada also has unique support partnerships for agents, attorneys, financial advisors, and other professionals to address client claim support, family transitions, and generational retention. Learn more at SteadfastWithAmada.com. What kinds of proactive steps could families take before a crisis that would dramatically change their experience later? Now, I know we just talked about a couple of them, right? Maybe, a little bit in advance, kind of talking about home care agencies in the area, But what else practically do you think would be helpful?

Michelle Graf [00:14:06]:
It depends on how far advanced you're looking. But yeah, one thing I really— that's very helpful. And before we can even begin the process of looking for care, we're always asking families what's the financial situation. So even just getting a handle on— mom's got a little budget. So if she needs care next year, she's got a little budget to get her started down that path because long-term care is not free. And that's always a shock to people. So many people think that long-term care is going to be covered by their health or their medical insurance. And it's not.

Michelle Graf [00:14:35]:
Medicare doesn't cover that, nor does any private insurance. So you've got to either have the long-term care insurance or you got equity in the house, something. But you kind of need some money to make that transition. And I think that alone, people having that set aside reduces the stress because they're like, "No, we can afford it. Okay, problem one solved."

Kelly Augspurger [00:14:55]:
Yeah.

Michelle Graf [00:14:56]:
And then, if you want to plan ahead, you can start to look at, let's say it's a year in advance. You could shop around at your local assisted livings, or you could contact a certified senior care advisor like me, or somebody like a Care Patrol certified senior care advisor. Because what we can do is we help people understand based on where your loved one's care needs are today, based upon their budget and their financial situation and based upon their lifestyle preferences. We go through a care discovery to really understand that and look at geography, as well. We put those pieces together and we're able to basically recommend a handful-- 2, 3, 4, 5 communities that would meet that individual's needs. Just here in the Fox Valley, it's not a big market. This is a relatively small city. We have more than 70 different facilities for care so...

Kelly Augspurger [00:15:44]:
Oh my goodness.

Michelle Graf [00:15:45]:
So it's daunting to people. So people tend to say, "Oh, I know this one, it's down the street from my house, or I know this one because they advertise a lot." Being aware of a facility doesn't make it the right one for you. It's got to be that match and looking at the whole care situation for today and then down the road.

Kelly Augspurger [00:16:03]:
Well, let's talk about the different types of care options. That's a great segue. Home care, assisted living, memory care, skilled nursing. How do you help them determine what's appropriate right now when that care is needed? Now, I know you said lifestyle, kind of like what they prefer, right? Probably their finances. What else is involved as you're looking at types of care choices?

Michelle Graf [00:16:25]:
When we do a care discovery, the aspects of that are to understand where they're at right now, from a care need, their activities of daily living that they need help with, and then their healthcare situation, as well. The healthcare situation tells us if they have a diagnosis that they may have a certain path that they're going to be going down. Perhaps they have a dementia diagnosis and they're still super independent right now, but we know that they're going to need more help down the road. We see that with Parkinson's a lot. There's other chronic illnesses that we know that there's going to be a certain path and we want to make sure we get them into a situation that can meet their needs now, currently, and then for the future, as well. And we're also obviously looking at their financial situation. Are they a veteran or do they qualify for any additional benefits, things like that, to really help them find the best care that they can afford that meets their needs. We love to meet with families in the home where the senior lives so we can see the environment.

Michelle Graf [00:17:25]:
Do they have a fancy modern house, or are they more a simple farmhouse-style lifestyle? It's that physical environment is actually part of the decision-making process for us on where we recommend for them because we want it to be a place that they're going to feel comfortable.

Kelly Augspurger [00:17:42]:
That makes a lot of sense. When we're looking at facilities and specifically assisted living versus memory care, what are some biggest misunderstandings that families have about those, about assisted living and memory care?

Michelle Graf [00:17:54]:
First of all, just figuring out which is which. This may not be true everywhere in the country, but I know in our own market you'll see signs out front of buildings that say anything from "retirement community" to "assisted living", "senior living", "memory care", and they don't mean anything. They mean nothing. So it's really understandable to me why people get confused about what the differences are. You have to know more. You have to know the license level and even within the license, it differs. So in our market, every memory care is an assisted living, but not every assisted living can provide memory care. Even if they say they can. Okay.

Michelle Graf [00:18:34]:
So it does require some digging and expertise. I would never choose a facility without talking to the families who are there about the services that they are currently receiving to ensure that it's truly what they say that they would do.

Kelly Augspurger [00:18:47]:
Great advice. So as you're taking a tour, are you saying maybe you see a family visiting a loved one that's in there, kind of get to know them a little bit and say, "Hey, would you mind sharing with me your experience of living here and what kind of care your mom or dad needs?" Something like that?

Michelle Graf [00:19:04]:
I would absolutely recommend that.

Kelly Augspurger [00:19:06]:
Yeah. Oh, I love that. That's practical.

Michelle Graf [00:19:08]:
Or, if you work with an advisor, we know we have all that information.

Kelly Augspurger [00:19:11]:
Sure, sure. Yeah, that's very real life and practical that people can actually use.

Michelle Graf [00:19:16]:
Now, there's all different types of facilities, right? You have standalone, different levels of care. And you also have the continuing care retirement communities like you mentioned, Kelly. And continuing care retirement communities are great in that they have multiple levels. So a person might decide, "Hey, you know what, I'm starting to slow down. I think I just want to get an independent living apartment. And then if I need care, it's there, right? I might move to a smaller apartment, or I might need memory care. So I might need to move to memory care." And you're all under one roof.

Michelle Graf [00:19:46]:
It's a great benefit. It's fantastic. The only downside to that is it's the most expensive level of care. And so it's something to be aware of. Again, that goes to the planning part.

Kelly Augspurger [00:19:57]:
Right. The CCRCs is what you're talking about specifically. And I know there's many different types of CCRCs, right, Michelle? And we don't have the time to go into all of that today, but there are different types. Like, is it lump sum, monthly ongoing premiums? Is it a smaller lump sum with maybe a slightly higher monthly ongoing payments that you have. And so, you probably need to do research, or work with someone like Michelle where it's like, "Okay, what kind of CCRC is this? How do they charge? What is included? What is not included," right? I think what's key with CCRCs is from my experience is that you have to be independent to enter most CCRCs, correct? Generally, I'm not gonna be able to just go into a CCRC when I need skilled care. They're probably not gonna take you, right? And can you explain that a little bit, Michelle?

Michelle Graf [00:20:49]:
In my market, I know what you're speaking of, Kelly, and that's true for many places. In our geography specifically, you can enter at any level. And in my market specifically, there is no buy-in. You don't have to pay anything upfront.

Kelly Augspurger [00:21:02]:
Really? Oh, that's shocking!

Michelle Graf [00:21:03]:
They're all independent. I know it is.

Kelly Augspurger [00:21:06]:
It's interesting, isn't it? Okay, that's very different than from my experience with other CCRCs. Can you briefly explain, Michelle, why would some CCRCs require you to go in at an independent level? Whereas others, they don't care. Maybe they would allow you to come in needing skilled care.

Michelle Graf [00:21:23]:
I couldn't even fathom to guess at what their strategies are, but I would imagine that the ones that require independent living move-in is just because they are considered to be more comprehensive retirement communities and that the care on the back end, the memory care and the higher level enhanced care, we'll call it, is really intended to be for people who live there to age in place. And they wouldn't accept somebody who suddenly needs memory care because of the fact that their residents come first, the people who have already been living there. So that model makes sense. In our market, they tend to have fairly large memory cares and enhanced cares, and therefore typically they're able to accommodate people from the outside from time to time.

Kelly Augspurger [00:22:05]:
Okay, let's talk a little bit more about money and financial planning as it relates to care options. I mean, I think we already know proactive planning, yes, that's definitely preferred. You're probably gonna have better options and hopefully it's not gonna be as painful financially because you have done that planning upfront. But can you briefly talk about the change in the range of quality care options families have when they plan in advance versus that crisis planning, what those financial options might be and those care options might be, how those might be different?

Michelle Graf [00:22:39]:
And I had mentioned earlier that it's always good, even people who maybe aren't gonna plan for care is just to have some money set aside for care just in case. Because one of the difficulties we face is when it is a crisis situation and people don't have cash on hand, it's impossible to find a situation for them to be able to move into quickly. You must have a way to pay for your care.

Kelly Augspurger [00:23:05]:
Michelle, something that I've noticed, just kind of speaking of liquidity and cash, because I work with a lot of financial advisors, I'm not an advisor, but I work with a lot of them and this is what I've seen. Where they might have clients who have a few million dollars, but maybe a good majority of that is tied up in real estate or qualified 401(k) retirement plans. And they don't have a lot of cash that is easily accessible. And so if it is a crisis and it's like, "Oh my gosh, we need money now," right? Well, I may not be able to get it tomorrow, right? I might have to sell some property, or tap into that 401(k). And how long is that going to take to actually get those funds? So that's, I think, what you're really speaking to, right, is having that money readily available so that you're ready, you have the money.

Michelle Graf [00:23:52]:
And it depends on which state you live in. So there are some markets where one month, just one, the first month of care would be $15,000. Now, in my market, it's probably more in the range of $6,000. And there's probably some places where it's a little bit more affordable, $3,000, $4,000, $5,000 a month. So thinking about having a couple of months of cash, depending on your geography, to make that first step, I think would help people a lot. That would be an important thing to be thinking about. Other financial things to consider is if you are a veteran and you've served in wartime, you may be eligible depending on your financial situation.

Michelle Graf [00:24:31]:
There are some limits to income limits and asset limits, but you might be eligible for an Aid and Attendance pension, which a lot of veterans have benefited from. In our own market where we've been able to help them build their private pay up so that they can get into a better facility and have more options.

Kelly Augspurger [00:24:49]:
That's great. That's a question that I ask my clients is, "Are you a veteran?" And if they are, "Are you aware that there are benefits potentially available?" Now they're limited, right? And we kind of talk about that a little bit. But yeah, absolutely. If you're a veteran, there could be some benefits depending on assets and income at the time. And like you said, "Did you serve during wartime?" There's definitely some red tape, I think, but it is available. So if you can take advantage of it and use it, it's great. All right, Michelle, we're going to transition to a little bit of a lightning round. So what we're going to do is I'm just going to ask you a few questions and it's just going to be fast.

Kelly Augspurger [00:25:26]:
Okay? It's just going to be real quick, kind of the first thing that you think of, and we'll move on to the next one. So it's just going to be fun. But the first one-- one sign families often wait too long What's that one sign?

Michelle Graf [00:25:40]:
Well, the sign for me that families wait too long is a very large portion of the families that we work with, the seniors that we work with, are calling from the context of my loved one is in the hospital, my loved one is at a nursing home, and they need to go right now.

Kelly Augspurger [00:25:56]:
Yeah, it's that kind of that 36-hour time frame, right? "Okay, what do we do?" Yeah. Waiting too long. You're getting that hospital, or nursing home phone call. Next one-- one question every caregiver should ask themselves.

Michelle Graf [00:26:10]:
Every caregiver should be asking themselves, what is my limit? And the limits that I commonly see for caregivers when they're not getting a good night's sleep because their loved one is maybe up and they're needing to be up at night, their health starts to decline. I think caregivers really need to watch their health. They tend to neglect their own needs because they are a caregiver, and that's a very dangerous place to be because if they're not healthy, they can't help their loved one.

Kelly Augspurger [00:26:35]:
Spot on. Caregiver burnout is real, isn't it? If we can reduce that as much as possible, it's going to benefit the care recipient, but also the caregiver in the long run. Okay, next question-- one thing that surprises families most often about senior care? That Medicare doesn't pay for it. Yep, I get that misconception all the time from clients. And then-- one planning decision that changes everything?

Michelle Graf [00:26:59]:
Well, we've talked about it extensively, setting aside a little cash so you've got it on hand when and if you need it. If you don't, great. But if you need it, have it there readily accessible. Perfect. Money equals...money creates options, Kelly. Money equals options.

Kelly Augspurger [00:27:15]:
You know what? Yeah, it kind of like hurts to say that a little bit, like deep in my soul, but it's so true. It really does. It makes a big difference in the long run, not just for you, but for your family, as well. Okay, well, great job. Lightning round is finished, Michelle.

Michelle Graf [00:27:29]:
Well, thank you for the opportunity to be with you. It was a pleasure. And if you ever want to get a hold of us, our website is CarePatrol.com. We're on Facebook and we are on LinkedIn. And if you want to call our Northeast Wisconsin Care Patrol office, our number is 920-428-0827.

Kelly Augspurger [00:27:50]:
Well, Michelle, thank you so much for your time today. We really appreciate it. Have a wonderful day! Take care.