Long-Term Care Insurance: What's Love Got to Do With It?

Join Kelly and her guest co-host, Nic Nielsen, CFP®, Co-Owner of Know My Plan. 

In this episode, Kelly explains: 

🔹 What long-term care insurance can do and how it works 

🔹 Why long-term care insurance is about love 

🔹 Advice on how people can plan for care to live well 

               
Watch this episode on YouTube: 
https://youtu.be/a7t8iiTl-bo 

For additional information about Kelly, check her out on Linkedin or www.SteadfastAgents.com.

To explore your options for long-term care insurance, click here.

Steadfast Care Planning podcast is made possible by AMADA Senior Care and Steadfast Insurance LLC.

Come back next time for more helpful guidance! 

Transcript

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Kelly Augspurger  0:02  
Hey everyone, welcome to Steadfast Care Planning where we plan for care to live well. I'm your guide, Kelly Augspurger. Today, we are mixing it up! Instead of me interviewing a guest. I have a guest co-host, Nic Nielsen, who is going to ask me the questions today, Nic is a Certified Financial Planner and co-owner of Know My Plan. Nic, thanks so much for being here, friend!

Nic Nielsen  0:25  
Kelly, it is great to be here with you and glad to be your co-host for this journey together today.

Kelly Augspurger  0:32  
Exciting, very exciting. Well, today, it's not just another day, it is February 14th, which is Valentine's Day. A day to celebrate love those people in our lives that we care about and I thought "you know what, for today's episode, there's no better day than to talk abou drum roll... long term care insurance." It may sound weird, but a reason to have long term care insurance really boils down to love. And so that's what we're gonna be talking about today.

Nic Nielsen  1:02  
Can you really love someone and not make sure you have long term care plans in place? Like I think that's what love is all about? 

Kelly Augspurger  1:09  
That's right. 

Nic Nielsen  1:10  
On a serious note, Kelly, set the stage, what is long term care? And why is it so important?

Kelly Augspurger  1:16  
Yeah, well, the facts are Nick, that most of us are not going to escape this life without needing some form of extended care and that's going to look different for everyone, but most of us will need some help, as we age or all of a sudden due to an illness, so having protection in place, and a plan, is really important for our family and our finances. So what is long term care insurance? Well, it's a designated bucket of money to pay for care. It's going to provide tax-free income, and that is going to come in the form of a daily or a monthly benefit and this is going to be over a period of time. It could be a benefit period of two years, all the way up to lifetime benefits. A policy is also oftentimes going to have what we call inflation protection because we know at age 50, let's say you buy a policy at age 50, and maybe you don't need care for 30 years until age 80. Well guess what happens? There's inflation, right? Costs go up, so we want that policy to grow over time, with the cost of care as care increases. So there's inflation protection available on policies. There's also the potential to have what we call shared benefits. So this is particularly important for partners, or couples, to be able to share benefits, and it's a way to get more coverage, to be able to share benefits together. Some other things to think about with long term care insurance - how do you even receive benefits? Well, benefits are paid out two ways, Nic. So it's going to be a physical impairment, or cognitive impairment, it's not both, it's one or the other. What we call physical impairment, what we're really talking about here are Activities of Daily Living, okay, these are things that we do every day that we probably don't even think about. These are transferring, toileting, bathing, dressing, eating and continence. So if you need help with just two out of the six Activities of Daily Living, and your expected need of care is more than 90 days, then that would trigger your policy and you would receive benefits. And, of course, there's a waiting period as well, there's an elimination period that you have to fulfill. Or you receive benefits when there's a cognitive impairment.

Nic Nielsen  3:40  
The elimination period, that varies by policy, right? It's not standard that every policy has a 60 day elimination period?

Kelly Augspurger  3:47  
Right. So depending on the carrier and the policy, that time period will be different. So usually a lot of policies have a 90 day elimination period, but some companies offer like a zero day home care, so you don't have to wait to receive benefits if you're receiving care at home. Sometimes you can actually change that waiting period to be longer or shorter, just depending on the carrier and the policy, but there will be generally some type of waiting period in the policy. That's pretty standard. Nic, some other things to consider too, when when you have a policy, is that there are other benefits. So yes, you get this daily or monthly benefit, this income tax-free income, but most policies have these other benefits. So these are going to be things like care coordination. You're going to have a team of people, maybe even one point person, to help your family through the situation so they can help put together a Plan of Care, give recommendations of home care agencies, facilities, to be able to assist the family in a really difficult time situation. So the family doesn't have to rely on Google to be able to figure out what do we do next? You've got a team of people to help you. Also, many policies have respite care. So if you've got informal caregivers can actually pay to have professionals come in to give them a break because we know there's caregiver burnout. There's also oftentimes home modifications and caregiver training. These are other things that typically come with policies, again, to help the family, to help you as the care recipient be able to receive quality care.

Nic Nielsen  5:29  
And the caregiver has to take care of themselves, right? And that's why that respite care is so important because so many times I know that we see the caregiver ends up transitioning to then needing care themselves, in so many of these cases.

Kelly Augspurger  5:42  
That's right, it is a big problem. Caregivers do not generally take the best care of themselves because they are expending their energy and their time for their loved one. 

Nic Nielsen  5:53  
One thing that comes to mind, as I recently have asked a couple of families "Tell me about your plan for long term care if you need it." And the response I got both times and now I've learned I need to ask a better question was, "Well, I don't want long term care, because I'm not going to a facility." So I think it's so great just to tell the world that long term care does not equal being in a facility, I don't know if you can just take a minute and touch on that.

Kelly Augspurger  6:19  
That's a gold right there, Nic, because long term care, it's not a location. When you have a policy, it doesn't matter where you receive care, wherever you call home. So that might be your actual home. That might be a loved one's home. That might be an assisted living. It might mean you're receiving adult daycare during the day, or it might mean a skilled nursing facility, also known as a nursing home. Now, obviously, that's the last place most people want to be is a nursing home, but being able to stay in control of your care options and choose where you want to receive care. That is really the goal of a policy as you have that control of your care options. So thinking what's your plan for the future? What's your plan for extended care? "Well, hey, you know, I'm never going to facility so I don't need long term care insurance." No, no, no, that's not the answer. We all probably will need some form of long term care, extended care, but where do you want to receive care? Do you want to stay at home? Do you want, have you thought about even maybe a nice assisted living facility, there are plenty of those around these days, some people even consider them kind of like going back to college. So you've got you've got friends down the hall, you've got meals, you've got companionship, but really, it's been able to decide where you want to receive care. Okay, no matter where that is. 

Nic Nielsen  7:40  
Yeah that's great. I love the phrase, "wherever you call home." I think that's a lovely way to look at it. Perfect. Kelly, why is long term care insurance about love?

Kelly Augspurger  7:49  
Yeah. When I talk with clients, typically, the number one reason that they are looking into coverage is because they care about someone else. They care about maybe a spouse or partner, they care about their kids, their extended family. They don't want to be a burden to them. If they need care, they don't want that loved one to have to give everything they have physically, mentally, emotionally, and financially, in order to provide care for them. They want to protect them, protect that relationship and so typically, clients are saying, "Listen, Kelly, I don't want to be a burden to my people. That's really why I want to plan" and they want to protect their finances, but family usually is the number one reason that my clients are planning and considering coverage, considering a policy. And Nic, when we think about what that looks like as as caregivers, okay, they physically might be providing that care, helping with those Activities of Daily Living, or maybe if there's a cognitive impairment, it is supervising care, right? If it's dementia, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, something like that, there's definitely a physical component to that, to keeping them safe. And then there's the mental and emotional component, which I think that's oftentimes really understated that when you are a caregiver. It's really stressful, it's very draining, and so we want to be able to really reduce those consequences and protect the family. And then financially, we know that it can be expensive to pay for care or expensive if that caregiver is having to take time away from work to provide the care. So we really want to allow people to live well and stay in control of their care options, and that really is going to help protect their loved ones. 

And now for a brief message from our show sponsor. The Steadfast Care Planning podcast is sponsored by the CLTC, Certified in Long Term Care Training program, which gives financial advisors tools to discuss extended care planning with their clients. Look for the CLTC designation when choosing an advisor.

And then when we talk about family Nic, in caregiving, we know, and there's been lots of different studies, but AARP actually has a caregiving report that they put out in 2020 and it talks about the number of caregivers and what caregivers actually look like in the United States. There are about 53 million caregivers in the United States with more than 41 million Americans who are caregivers to someone over the age of 50. 41 million - that's a lot of people! A lot of people that are sacrificing their time, their energy, their physical bodies in order to provide care. So when we think about that, what is that doing to those caregivers, right? It's that burnout and so being able to financially hire professionals, professional home care, an agency, or maybe it is in a facility, like an assisted living facility, to really be able to protect those family members so that they can remain in their roles. They can remain a spouse.

Nic Nielsen  11:06  
And also these people are trained to know how to move people safely, right? If my wife had to try to move me today, I weigh in at a very svelte 215 pounds, but if something happened to me, where I couldn't move myself, would my wife even be able to help transfer me without hurting herself? You know, she's not trained to do that.

Kelly Augspurger  11:29  
Absolutely and so you've got professionals that know how to do it and are trained in that area. Same boat here, Nic, my husband's about 100 pounds more than I am, I'm very petite, and so would I physically be able to move him? No, not on my best day! I am strong, I do strength training, but there's no way I can do that. You know, that's not realistic and so having people that are trained to do that, and have the capability of doing that, it's crucial to protect those loved ones. You know even thinking about your adult kids, can they even do that? Are they even around? Do they want to do that? We really want to protect them. And then their emotional and mental health, right? We talked about this earlier a little bit, about the stress. And I've seen this multiple times in my family with grandparents, Nic, and I think you have too. There's a lot of stress that happens when a long term care situation is here. Who's going to provide that care? How you going to pay for it? 24/7 care - that can be debilitating to a caregiver. Is it going to tear down their physical health? Again, seeing this multiple times with my grandparents, the caregiver themselves, their health: their mental and physical health, went down big time during the care event, and then even after, which then actually accelerated their need for care.

Nic Nielsen  12:49  
Yeah, it feels like the mental and the emotional strain always leads to the physical manifestation of them going down. They're not trained to do it, riight? And one of my favorite lines that I heard, one of my clients say, maybe 10 years ago, and always stuck with me, is that "I want to make sure that my kids are my kids and there's certain things that I just don't want them to have to see as I age" and that always stuck with me.

Kelly Augspurger  13:16  
That's right, as an adult child, do you want to help bathe your parents? Or do your parents want you to help them, you know, to bathe them? You know, I did this with my Mamaw and it came to that point, I don't even consider myself a caregiver until it got to the point where she needed help in the shower. And I'm like, "Oh, my goodness, I'm not qualified to do this" from a safety standpoint, but then that really changes the dynamic of the relationship. And it's like, "Okay, Mom and Dad, we need to come up with a better solution because this is not happening. This is not a viable solution anymore." And at that point for her, we went to an assisted living for her, but that really changes the dynamic of of the relationship. Typically, parents want their kids to be kids, kids want to be kids, and not have to move to that caregiver role.

Nic Nielsen  14:03  
It's one thing to provide care for someone who is maybe a stranger or a distant friend. It's different when you're providing that level of care for someone that you're so intimately connected with, like a parent or grandparent, So I think it's great to have that level of separation between duties because even if you're not providing the care, to see a loved one go through this, that in of itself, has a toll that it takes on you mentally and emotionally.

Kelly Augspurger  14:30  
Yeah, for sure. It's interesting, there was a recent survey of home based caregivers sponsored by the CLTC, Homestead and Home Thrive, and caregivers were asked a variety of questions. Okay, one of the questions they were asked was, "What tasks are most difficult for you?" Top two answers: paying for care and providing care, helping with those Activities of Daily Living? That's no surprise, right, that physical component and then that financial component and the most important reasons that those family caregivers used paid home care were because of that caregiver burnout, the lack of expertise to provide that needed care. They also wanted to maintain that relationship with the care recipient and they were worried about their job, right? Yeah, those are examples right there of why it's so stressful to be a caregiver. And so they were also asked, "What would have been easier if you had paid help?" And they said, I would have had time to relax and enjoy life. I could deal with emotional stress and the physical strain if I had that time, and then time for self-care, you know, again, helping with that caregiver burnout. So I think it just goes to show that again, you want to have a plan of who's going to provide that care, how do we reduce those consequences? How do we reduce that stress to be able to live well, not only the care recipient, but the caregiver themselves? I think some other things to consider too, Nic, are time. If you've got someone providing that care, whether it's the spouse or the kids, what are they giving up in order to provide that care with their time? Time is often thought as like your most precious thing, right? You can't buy more time. So if adult kids have to provide care for the spouse, what are they missing out on? Are they missing out on their kids lives, their spouses lives? Are they missing out on kids' sports, music recitals, dance recitals, vacations? What does that look like?

Nic Nielsen  16:37  
And the ripple effect, right? I mean, the ripple effect of not taking that trip to Disney with the kids and not creating those memories. There's a substantial ripple effect from that lost time.

Kelly Augspurger  16:49  
Yeah, there really is and we want to really be able to protect that. We also really want to be able to protect the retirement of the loved ones, the retirement of the spouse. So if I as a care recipient in needing care is my husband going to have enough funds to live out the rest of his life in retirement? Or my kids? f they have to give up time caring for me, are they having to reduce hours at work or quit their job to provide care for me? I don't want them to do that. You know, again, I don't want to be the burden to them. I want to really protect that retirement, having a policy helps protect the retirement as well. And then we talked earlier about other benefits: the care coordination, the caregiver training, home modifications, respite care, bed reservations. Even things that we consider, what we call Instrumental Activities of Daily Living, Nic, these are things like meal prep, light housework, while they're caring for you, the caregiver can also do some of these things, and that is of enormous value.

Nic Nielsen  17:47  
Caregiver meal prep tip 101 - get yourself an air fryer.

Kelly Augspurger  17:53  
Oh Yeah. 

Nic Nielsen  17:55  
Talk about quick, easy, healthy, get that air fryer.

Kelly Augspurger  17:59  
That's so funny. You know, I've got one sitting in my basement, Nic and I don't use it, shame on me. I'm like a sucker for my crock pot. I like to set it and forget it and I don't like to do things last last minute, but I know some people that absolutely love the airfryer and they can't go a day without it.

Nic Nielsen 18:15  
With the air fryer to get those crispy sweet potato fries and a rice cooker to cook my quinoa just right, meal prep 101. Little value add for all those caregivers out there.

Kelly Augspurger  18:28  
Yeah, absolutely, yea great caregiver tip, Nic, I love it. Some other things to think about with finances. We know it's tax-free income, having a policy, so you don't have to convert assets to income, and incur any type of specific tax consequences with that. And not having to spend down the retirement like I just talked about, right? We want to protect the retirement, protect the nest egg, protect the home, the estate, so you don't have to use other funds, you've got a designated bucket for your care. It's also going to free up your financial planner, it's going to free up Nic or whoever your financial planner is, so they can invest 

Nic Nielsen  19:04  
Which should be Nic

Kelly Augspurger  19:05  
in ways, that should be Nic, if it's not, Nic, maybe you need to reconsider.

Nic Nielsen  19:11  
Can we take a quick moment to talk about the nest egg, Kelly?

Kelly Augspurger  19:15  
Yeah, yeah.

Nic Nielsen  19:16  
This is one that I think we kind of glance over it from time to time in this long term care discussion, but to me, this is real. When I look at a financial plan, most of the people that I work with are to a point where if everything goes right, from a health perspective, they have no financial worries and the one thing that always comes up is what if we have a significant medical event where we need an amount of care for a long period of time that's out of pocket. Husband and wife - there is a very real possibility that if you don't have a game plan for this, in advance, the surviving spouse could be destitute. Now this seems extreme, but I'm telling you, me and you both see more and more cases of these early onset cognitive events and your care for these things are expensive and I know it varies by regions of the country where you're at, but let's say in general, it's going to be north of $10,000 a month. I know this is about love. If we can set aside a little bit of money today to make sure that one spouse doesn't leave the surviving spouse destitute, that is so incredibly important, and that is a small price to pay for that peace of mind that a healthy spouse can continue to live their best life, whatever that's going to mean in the new world because people can live with these cognitive events for 10-15 years.

Kelly Augspurger  20:34  
Yeah. Oh, it's real and those are the scary situations, Nic. Those cognitive impairments, that's when we really need to consider do I have a history of cognitive impairments in my family? Do I have grandparents, parents, that have had this? If so, looking at a policy with a longer benefit period is important because the chances of you maybe also getting a cognitive impairment are higher just because of those genetics, unfortunately. So yeah, providing the peace of mind for your loved ones, freeing up your financial planner, so they can invest in hopefully ways that maybe they couldn't have if you didn't have long term care insurance, right?

Nic Nielsen  21:11  
Once again, the ripple effects, as I mentioned before, is is the legacy piece of it, right? 

Kelly Augspurger  21:17  
Yeah. 

Nic Nielsen  21:18
You know, maybe part of your vision is to leave assets, not only to your kids, but grandkids and I know, legacy goes much further and deeper than just money, but those are things that can all be wiped out by a lack of careful planning. 

Kelly Augspurger
That's right and I know some grandparents have a strong desire to either leave kids or grandkids a chunk of money or contribute to college, right? If you have a care situation and you don't have a plan, you don't have a way to fund that - an efficient way with leverage, like a policy, what happens? Is that money that you were going to designate to college, do you have to use that now to pay for your care, so then that is taking away from the legacy and for what you really wanted your big desire for your grandkids, right? And charities, too. I work with a lot of families that are very generous, and so they have goals to leave money to charities. Certainly it's a concern if I need care, what is that going to do to even my ability to give?

Nic Nielsen  22:17  
If you asked every family that you met with to kind of create a vision board of all of those great things that you imagine in their life, and that could be giving to charity, paying for your children's college education, seeing your family take a big trip, whatever the case is, whatever is on your vision board. The one thing that can take that all away is the substantial long term care event, like you can just you just wipe the vision board clean, the slate all goes away. And generally, what I see is probably less than 1% of someone's liquid net worth annually, you can take that tail risk completely off the plate and leave that vision board intact. So it's not overly complicated, but you have to be intentional and you have to take some time, you have to work with an expert like you. You don't want your cousin Joe, who just got into the industry to wing it, you know, work with the best of the best. And the great thing about you Kelly is you are not confined to working with people from the state of Ohio. You can work with anybody that you want to throughout the United States.

Kelly Augspurger  23:22  
Yeah, yeah. Thanks, Nic. True. I do work nationwide and so you do want to work with someone that is a Long Term Care Specialist, someone that does this day in day out. They have not only the knowledge, but they have access to lots of different carriers, lots of companies.

Nic Nielsen  23:40  
Not the proprietary, I work for XYZ insurance company. Let me tell you how great XYZ is.

Kelly Augspurger  23:46  
Right, right. Working with someone that's independent, who's able to look out in the marketplace, okay based on your health, your situation, your goals, your finances, let's find the right fit for you, the right company for you, the right policy and product for you. 

Nic Nielsen  24:02  
It's not the same for every person. 

Kelly Augspurger  24:04  
Oh, my goodness, just like a financial plan, right Nic? No financial plan is the same. Everyone's financial plan is going to be different. Same thing with long term care insurance. It's not a cookie cutter approach.

Nic Nielsen  24:14  
Any other advice on how people can plan for care to live well, Kelly?

Kelly Augspurger  24:19  
Yeah, well, I'd say look into long term care insurance, right? I think that's the obvious answer here. Particularly, if you're over 40, and you've already established and have life insurance, disability insurance, you've got that down, you're doing a good job of saving, investing, etc. The younger and healthier you are, the more options that you will have, okay? And that will be less expensive. Just like with life insurance, right? If I do it when I'm 25, it's going to be less expensive than if I wait until I'm 55. Same thing with long term care insurance. We want it to be affordable. We want it to be meaningful. The older you are and the more unhealthy you are, the more expensive it is or the less options you have. So we want to do it at the right time, healthier and younger.

Nic Nielsen  25:05  
When I meet with with families, Kelly, I always tell them that there are three barbarians that are coming to attack their castle and number two is health care. I always tell people that if there's anywhere where you're going to splurge in your own financial plan, it should be investing in your own health. That's going to mean different things to different people. It could be eating organic food, or getting a personal trainer, or the unlimited yoga membership. Any additional advice that you would give someone on, investing in your own health, because I think if you don't invest in it today, you're gonna pay, it's going to be an expense on the back end. So I would rather look at it as an investment today. I know you're big into strength training. Any other advice that you would give out there from investing in your health standpoint?

Kelly Augspurger  25:42  
Yeah, stay active, eat well, be social. I think that's often a component that is sometimes missed. We want to take care of our mental health, our physical health, our spiritual health, and then even our social health, you know, being engaged as you get older, don't be isolated. 

Nic Nielsen 26:03  
That's so beautiful. The way that you think of health is just not physical, right? Because it is that that social and spiritual thing, and you have to look at all elements of health. That's beautiful.

Kelly Augspurger  26:15  
Something else to think about, too, Nic, is when we're creating a plan for extended care, it's not just "Okay, go out and get a long term care insurance policy, check we're done." No, that's not your extended care plan. That policy will help pay for, will help fund your plan. When we're thinking about creating a plan for extended care, we want to think about a variety of things: who will provide that care? Is that going to be a spouse? Is that going to be kids? Is that going to be a professional? Is it going to be a combination? Who can do that? Who wants to do that? Where do I want to receive care? Do I want to stay at home? Which is the number one answer, right? I want to stay at home. That's where people typically want to receive care.

Nic Nielsen  26:56  
You know, I had a cousin, she's like a grandmother, but she was always one of these people "I'm never leaving my house, I'm gonna stay here forever." But as her health started to deteriorate, she came to the conclusion on her own, you know, "Hey, I need assisted living. I need something where I'm safe." You have to have a plan that evolves with you.

Kelly Augspurger  27:14  
Absolutely and those are things to consider too. You know, if I do need more help, or if I end up being a widow, if I'm married, do I want to stay at home? You're not getting socialization, if you're living alone, unless you have people coming in a lot, every day, which is probably unlikely. So yeah, there's certainly options.

Nic Nielsen  27:33  
You can play pickleball every day.

Kelly Augspurger  27:35  
That's right. Who doesn't want to do that? I know we both love pickleball. Yeah and then how are you going to pay for that care? Is it going to be your long term care insurance policy? Is it going to be self-funding? Is it going to be a combination? Are you a veteran? Are there any benefits available to you if you're a veteran? So considering all these things, I did create a Roadmap to extended care planning that I give my clients, I give my advisors I work with for their clients. Listen, fill this out. It's a 40+ page document. A lot of tips too, it's not all fillable, but answer these questions, choose care preferences, who are the important contact people for you to really be able to put together a comprehensive plan for your family and for yourself, so that you can have an efficient plan. You have answered these important questions so that when the time comes, guess what? Your family can go back to this document and say, "Okay, well, guess what? I know what mom prefers. She's written it down. She's given this thought. I know what mom and dad want to do. It's right here in this Roadmap. So those are my suggestions.

Nic Nielsen  28:36  
Put it in writing. Go through Kelly's process. If you're listening or watching this, one key takeaway that Kelly said here about long term care planning, it starts at 40. If there's people in your life that you love, and you care about, and they're 40 or above, share this with them. This is critically important to the family's vision board coming to fruition. Kelly, it's amazing how much stuff that you put out in a short amount of time today. I learned a lot as I always do. If people want to learn more about you, or connect with you, what is the best way for people to do that?

Kelly Augspurger  29:08  
Yeah, well, I'd say the first place is our website, www.SteadfastAgents.com which I know I will have a link in the show notes as well as LinkedIn. Nic and I both are on LinkedIn a lot. and actually that's how we met. So thanks to LinkedIn for introducing us. And I know Nic, you're on there almost every day, if not everyday, putting out really valuable content. I also like to be on LinkedIn, and share educational pieces, this is how you can plan better. This is how you can protect your family and finances. So those are two two places to find me. What about you, Nic, where can people find more information about you?

Nic Nielsen  29:44  
Yes. Well, as you said, LinkedIn is a wonderful, wonderful place. N-I-E-L-S-E-N, one of those great Scandinavian names. Nic with no K. You can go to our website, it's www.KnowMy Plan.com. I also have a book Visual Finance. You can find it at Amazon or wherever you like to buy your books. It's just me with some short sketches. There's really no words to it. If you want to learn more about the sketch, there's a QR code that you can scan. So I like to tell people it will probably be the best book you'll never read.

Kelly Augspurger  30:13  
But you will look at, right?

Nic Nielsen  30:16  
You will look at.

Kelly Augspurger  30:18  
I think you are the master at drawing and illustrating with finance. I mean, I've never seen such simplified drawings, Nic, that you really just encapsulate exactly what you want to say in like a one page drawing. And it's a gift. So yeah, reach out to Nic.

Nic Nielsen  30:35  
Awesome. Kelly, thanks so much for what you're doing. You're helping so many people that you'll probably never even meet but people please, if you're thinking about making a long term care plan, reach out to Kelly, she's your first call and last call when it comes to long term care.

Kelly Augspurger  30:49  
Nic, thank you so much. Thanks for being my guest co-host today. Looking forward to future episodes.

Nic Nielsen  30:55  
Looking forward to it. Thanks, Kelly. 

Kelly Augspurger  30:56  
Alright thanks, Nic. Bye