Financially Preparing for the Empty Chair with Courtney Markley

Join Kelly and her guest: Courtney Markley, Owner of Markley Coaching Group. Courtney is on a mission to get people comfortable talking about money.

Today we’re talking about how to financially prepare for the empty chair.

In this episode: How can people financially prepare for the empty chair, best practices when talking to your spouse and kids, what to do if you’ve recently lost a spouse. 

Watch this episode on YouTube:

 https://youtu.be/hWsahDzfp1w

Find out more about Courtney Markley:

www.MarkleyCoachingGroup.com

#FinancialPlanning #LongTermCare #SteadfastCarePlanning 

For additional information about Kelly, check her out on Linkedin or www.SteadfastAgents.com.

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Steadfast Care Planning podcast is made possible by Steadfast Insurance LLC,
Certification in Long Term Care, and AMADA Senior Care Columbus.

Come back next time for more helpful guidance!

Transcript

Hey everyone, welcome to Steadfast Care Planning where we plan for care to live well. I'm your guide Kelly Augspurger. Today I have with me Courtney Markley, owner of Markley Coaching Group, where she's on a mission to get people comfortable talking about money. Courtney focuses on people's behavior with money, helps reduce financial stress, and develops a lasting legacy of stewardship. Courtney, thanks so much for being here!

Thank you so much for having me, Kelly. I'm excited.

Me too. Well, Courtney, let's jump right in. Today, we are going to be talking about the empty chair. I know that you aren't afraid to have difficult and often emotional conversations with your clients and one of those conversations is about the empty chair. Tell people first of all, what does the empty chair represent? And then second, what do people need to know and do to prepare for that empty chair with their finances?

Yes, absolutely. So when we talk about the empty chair with our clients, we're referring to a time where when they're married, and then one of the spouses passes away, that is the gentle way of us talking about a spouse passes away as the empty chair. It's such an important topic. And actually, our clients say that this is the most valuable topic that they talk about with us because a lot of people don't create that space to think about it. You know, it's not something really fun that we enjoy spending time talking about and thinking about right. You and I are kind of the oddballs. We talk about it all day, every day. Right. So the first thing that I tell people in preparing for the empty chair, one - first off is it sounds so simple, but honestly, it's first just having a conversation with your spouse about hey, what are some possible complications that could happen if either of us were to pass away? Sadly, normally, it's not something unless there's already a long term illness, normally, there's not something that you plan for, but it can happen pretty suddenly, right? And you don't want to be in the midst of chaos, and then say, okay, now what? So there's a few things that we encourage people to talk about the biggest one being finances. Again, finances is another topic that a lot of people don't like to spend a lot of time talking about and when you're talking about couples who have been married for decades even, normally they've already gotten into a pretty good rhythm about who does what, that a lot of them don't even communicate about what the other person is doing. So what we see most often is one of the spouses has been designated the money person. That could be because they enjoy it, they're really good at it, they're competent with it, and it could be because the other spouse really doesn't, really doesn't like talking about money. That's the person that we focus on the most is helping them feel confident and competent, if something were to happen, and primarily, we see this in women. So a lot of women let their husbands take on the role of provider, and you know, the money guy, because they might be really good at it and they trust them wholeheartedly. But 95% of women at one point will be the main financial decision makers in their house. So it's how do we get women to be really prepared to step into this role? Because, you know, if you wait until a crisis happens, and that person is no longer there to ask them questions, right? We can't say, hey, where did you keep this? How are you doing this? We're no longer there. So it's really important that the first step is just coming together and and talking about these things. So there's actually two little activities that I'll have clients do. And again, it sounds a little morbid or a little silly, but it's actually quite an eye opener. So the first one is, and I love this, I just recently had a client do this, a married couple in their early 60s and they they communicate about money fairly regularly. But the husband still takes on the main role of actually logistically getting everything done. So we came up with a little plan where for one month, he wasn't allowed to do anything and she had to pay all of the bills. She had to, you know, make sure the financial house was in order and she wasn't allowed to ask him any questions. So we were essentially removing him from the equation to say okay, if he were no longer around, and you have to figure it out. How do you do that? 

What a great test!

It was and she was such a trooper, you know, they both totally played into this role just to say, hey, we love each other and we want to make sure that we're prepared. And especially the husband, he felt, you know, just a big burden on him. You know, what's going to happen to my wife, if I'm no longer around, I really want to make sure that she understands how to run our financial house. So at the end of the month, came back together, asked how they did and she didn't realize how much she didn't know. She didn't realize and it was a huge eye opener for her because although they talk about where the money's going, she's not the one logging in and paying the bills. She's not the one, whoever goes to the bank, or any of these things, you know, dealing with insurance, anything like that. So it was a huge eye opener for her. That's one scenario that you can play out with your spouse.

I love that role playing because it is it's giving them a chance to step up to the plate and let's practice this before you're in crisis mode. You know, that way, if you do make mistakes or you're not sure what to do, you're going to work out those kinks before that empty chair situation happens. That's such a valuable test. 

 Yes, thank you. The second role playing that we do, again, we're trying to make this feel as real life scenario as possible, right, and this is one that I suggest, especially for my couples, who already feel like they're pretty prepared. They already have their wills in place, they have their insurance in place, and all these things. So they say we think we're well prepared. So I'd like to take him through this next role play where we say again, okay, let's pretend that you both have just suddenly passed away. Okay and now, walk through the steps that your survivors, kids, relatives, whoever they might be. How would they go about finding this information? You know, what steps would they need to take? Do they know the name of your insurance provider? Do they know where you bank? Do they understand how to contact your mortgage lender, and all all of these different things. So we walk them through those scenarios as well and this is really, really helpful. It normally helps fill in the gaps for the couples who already have done quite a bit of work, but may be missing some few key things to help their families once they are passed away. And again, we can't just go and ask them questions of hey, where do you bank? I need to get this, this, and this, right? 

So that's another really great role playing scenario, which again, you're kind of removing yourself from the situation and putting yourself in the other person's shoes and saying, okay, if this were to happen today, what would our kids do? Or what would our family do? And is this going to be a burden to them? 

Right, yeah. Courtney, I would imagine that this probably this situation right here, the second that we're talking about, where it's now up to the family, maybe it's the adult children or nieces, nephews, who ever is in your family that's going to be really tidying up your estate, that's probably thought secondary, as opposed to well, if I pass away, what's my spouse going to do? So if you've got both spouses gone, and you do have adult children, you've got family that need to take care of your estate, what do they do? So both of these scenarios are really great to role play through. I love that you take an active and proactive approach with your clients and do this and I'm so glad you brought that up because I know I've shared this with you as well, so that you can have it for your clients, but I created a Roadmap to Extended Care Planning and a Survivor's Guide. In that Roadmap, there are lots of questions - where do you keep documents - location? Who is your financial adviser, estate planner, insurance agent, where do you bank and then all the account numbers so that you can really have a log of where this information is, who the important people that your family needs to talk to, so it's yes, please fill this out, have these conversations so that your family is not in crisis mode, but they know exactly where to find the information and they know who to talk to to make it a little bit easier. We know it's going to be hard. It's always hard when a loved one passes away, but if we can relieve some of that burden, we are reducing consequences financially, physically, mentally and emotionally. So yes, have these conversations with your spouse, with your family, with your financial advisor, your financial coach like Courtney, to be able to get your ducks in a row. We want people to have a plan.

Yes, absolutely. And I've seen your Roadmap and it's so detailed and wonderful. So I love all the work that you've put into it. And it is really I would say priceless tool for people to use.

Thank you appreciate that. I mean, that's the idea is we want families to be prepared no matter the situation. So we want to give them resources and tools so that they can have that at their fingertips and fill it out. Don't just keep it in a file and not fill it out. But fill it out, so your family has a plan and they know exactly what to do and where to go and who to talk to. So great points, Courtney. And I will say even I think leading up to that empty chair. Even before that chair is empty, maybe you have a spouse that is currently needing care or might need care in the future. What do you do in that situation? You want to have conversations with your spouse before they're at that point, right? Because they might still be living, but what if they're not cognitively or even physically able to have these conversations with you. So you want to make sure you're doing this when both spouses are healthy and cognitively aware, so that you can have really productive conversations. so that we can reduce the consequences and with the long term care component of it, we want to reduce the physical consequences. So having conversations with your spouse and your family of, you know, who's going to provide care? Is that going to be a spouse? Is that going to be a family member? Is this going to be a professional caregiver? And then if there is a family or friend caregiver, what's the impact to their physical health? If they are going to provide the care? You know, are they willing to do that? And can they do that? We know there's a huge caregiver burnout. So we want to keep those things in mind. And then are they able to logistically provide care if they have a job a spouse or kids? And are they even geographically close enough to provide care? Is that even realistic? Right? Do they live in your city? Or are they in a different state? And then, mentally, and emotionally, it's so stressful when when there's an LTC situation, so what's the impact to their mental and emotional health? Will they be able to cope with the stress if you have a family member providing care? And how are those sibling relationships affected? One adult typically takes on more responsibility than the others. And so, how is that going to affect these sibling relationships down the road? And then financially, we know paying for care is can be really expensive and disrupt your retirement portfolio and your plan. I'm sure you see this, Courtney. Yes, absolutely. An LTC situation can derail a plan? So being able to figure out how you're going to pay for that care and are there tax consequences? If you don't have an LTC insurance policy will the surviving spouse have enough leftover to maintain financial security? Are they able to continue leaving those legacy and inheritance goals? A lot of things to consider, questions to talk about with your spouse, with your adult kids beforehand. We want this to be proactive.

Yes, absolutely. You're so you're so so good at doing this, Courtney.

I want to expand on one thing that you just said there, because it's so powerful. I really want people to grasp this, that if there's not long term care insurance in place, and then they move into a situation where they're needing long term care, it can so quickly drain all of the savings and the legacy that they were working their entire lives to build. And I think that, you know, no one ever thinks is going to happen to them, right? There's always going to be more time, there's always going to be more money. But again, I go back to what the statistics show us. So two thirds of widows expect a decreased income after their spouse passes away. A lot of times, not every time but a lot of times there's a situation where the husband moves into long term care, drains all of their nest egg, and then the wife is left again with very little to no nest egg and a decreased income after their spouse passes away. That is not the place that you want to be. I just recently heard a very, very tragic story of how a woman lost her husband and her house within the same month because there was there was just no planning in place. And so you that is not the legacy that you want to leave your family, so really it can happen to anyone. And there's no more time. Do it today. Those are the things I want to capitalize on. There's no more time. Do it today!

Yeah, plan now to reduce consequences later and to live well. Absolutely.

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What are some best practices when talking to your spouse and your kids about this, Courtney? I mean, you've already given us some great, just practical ways, even role playing how to do that. But is there a specific age on when people should do this? Or how or where?

I love this question I really do. I think you can start talking to your kids about it at you know, the conversation, I think just changes as your your kids grow up and mature, right? So, again, as soon as you have that plan in place, I would make sure that your family is aware of what it is because even let's take your Roadmap tool, let's say a couple does all of that, but then they don't tell their family about it. Well, then the tool again, is lost all its purpose. Right. Right, but I see what I see most regularly, whether it's spouses who are having trouble communicating, or the spouses are alive, but they're having trouble communicating to their adult children. Normally, there's a sense of, I'm trying to choose my words carefully. One, there's some boundary issues typically and another thing is, you know, there's just a lot of relationship dynamics that go on, right? These are usually uncomfortable conversations, it's uncomfortable to sit down and say, hey, if something were to happen to us, who would be getting this money? This is who would be taking care of this, you know, all of these things. When again, it's a heavy conversation. But I think we need to start reframing that in our mind to say, one, it's not about us, right? It's not about the people who are doing the planning. That's who we're planning for, which is our family. Yes, you've mentioned it a few times, we can't necessarily control, obviously, the emotional stress, or the emotional mental burden that's put on someone when they lose a spouse or a parent or loved one. But we can control a lot of other things leading up to it and even just the security and knowing that, hey, there's a plan in place and I can just by default, go right to the plan, and just kind of focus on my emotions and my mental health, because the plan is already there. So the biggest, the biggest advice that I would give someone is don't shy away from the tough conversations, you need to really lean into them now. And the more you have them, the easier it gets. But don't leave things on the table, the example that I gave you, the woman who lost her spouse and her house, that situation could have been avoidable. If they would have had conversations while he was still alive. There's a lot of things to be said about just saying the tough things and getting it out.

Yeah, that's right. Don't be afraid to have those conversations. You'd rather do it now, when you have more control versus after the fact when it's too late at that point. So do it now. While you have the time and you are competent, and you're able to do this. So take action now, absolutely. Courtney, I love that positive spin, right, we are able to do things right now. We have control over the decisions we make now. So let's talk about how we are doing this for our family. We love you so much that we want to have this really awkward, difficult conversation. So that later on, it's easier for you. It's easier for your siblings, it's easier for you know the spouse. And so let's focus on the good in it and what we can do, how we can stay in control as much as possible, knowing that we don't know when this is going to happen and how it's going to happen, but we can do something about this right now. So focusing on the positive, shedding light there, and calling it out for what it is. Yes, it's awkward. It's uncomfortable, but we're gonna do this. We're going to do this together.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's what families are for anyways, right? Yes, we have to get in there. Yeah, we have to, we can't shy away from the hard conversations. And so that's normally when I'm talking to someone about, you know, preparing for the empty chair, this is where our conversation normally ends up, is there's an uncomfortable conversation that needs to be had. And that's what's hindering the progress and moving forward and the planning. So that's what family's for, there's a big gift here that it's going to, it's just creating another opportunity for you to grow closer together and move forward together. So at the end of the day, you know, when all things are said and done, they're going to be really grateful that you took the time to prepare them and get everything in order. So it's truly a gift. If you look at it in a positive light.

Amen to that, total total agreement there. Yes, love that, Courtney. If someone is listening who has recently lost a spouse, or someone close to them that managed their finances, do you have any advice for them?

Yes, slow down, there's no rush. If you've just recently lost a spouse, there's going to be a lot of important decisions to be made financially. There's no rush, right? So slow down, I encourage people as long as legally there's nothing pressing them, try not to make any big financial decisions, at least for six months. Don't go buy a new car, don't move, you know, don't change all of your investments dramatically. There's a lot going on, you're processing a lot. So as long as you can help it, don't make any huge financial decisions right away, get support from people that you know and trust. That's the biggest thing. So whether that is a family member, or a close friend, lean on those people first, to say, hey, does this make sense? Is this a good decision? And then you can always meet up with, you know, not everyone has those people, again, who are just financially minded and that's why coaches exist. And there's a few other people that you can leave on during these times, but that's the biggest thing, don't be in a hurry. And then once you do start making some financial decisions, if there's some things that you need to learn, go to people that you really know and trust, that's that's the biggest thing because we don't want to be put in a situation where you're taken advantage of or don't make the best decision for yourself long term.

Right. Great advice. Okay, Courtney, any last bit of advice for people so they can plan now to live well? I know we covered a lot already today.

Yes, yes, we did. Reach out to Kelly for her Roadmap and do it. That would be my advice for people. Honestly. She did not tell me to say that, but I'm telling you to do it. It is incredibly important and it's a good, it's similar to the role playing exercises that we talked about. It'll help fill in the gaps and then that will show you where you can start your conversations with either your spouse, or your your friends and family.
Great. Thanks, Courtney, and lastly, where can people find you to learn more?
Oh very good. People can find me at my website, markleycoachinggroup.com. We are regularly doing free workshops for people that you can sign up for. We also have some good group sessions that will be coming up in the new year specifically on these types of topics. So I'm really excited about those but you can find out more at markleycoachinggroup.com. Thank you.

Fantastic. Well, Courtney, thank you so much for your time today. It's always a pleasure talking with you. So thanks again and I'll talk to you soon.
Thank you so much, Kelly. I look forward to talking to you again soon.